I think anyone will agree that wherever you are, entertainment matters. Think about it…consider the number of movies you’ve seen, the countless hours of television you’ve watched, the thousands of songs you’ve downloaded and the video games you’ve played.
The world would be a seriously boring place without entertainment.
I’m not sure how many of you have had a chance to fly on one of our aircraft equipped with the “Delta on Demand” digital entertainment system, but if you have then you know what a huge difference it makes to have a ton of stuff to watch on your own personal screen. We’ve got satellite TV, movies, HBO, 2,500 MP3s and games — all on demand.
Here’s an inside view:
And for you frequent flyers who have had a chance to experience Delta on Demand on a regular basis, I want to acknowledge the technical challenges we’ve experienced with the system lately. I’ll talk more about that and what we’re doing to correct these issues in my next post. I’ll also fill you in on some of the enhancements we’re making to the system in the coming months.
And on that note, what kind of enhancements would YOU like to see? For instance, should we add music videos? Should we add more new Hollywood films or more independent titles?
I hope you’ll stay connected to Delta via this new blog. I certainly like discussing the airline industry and reading your comments, so you’ll be seeing many posts from me in the weeks and months to come.
Chris Babb
Manager - Global Product Development
In-Flight Entertainment
August 31st, 2007 at 12:11 pm
Hi Chris - love DoD - it was a great addition to the Song experience and good to see you rolling out more broadly.
A suggestion to you not on content, but on experience: disable the touchscreen. Recently on DL 668 from ATL - BOS, the guy behind me was jabbing at his screen for most of the flight, changing channels and settings, etc. It makes for a quite unpleasant flight when this happens…!
August 31st, 2007 at 12:26 pm
Peter…thanks for the compliment.
I am are aware that overzealous touching can be annoying. I’ve been on a few flights myself where this happened. Unfortunately we’re not able to disable the touchscreen as that’s the system’s interface — we don’t offer individual handsets.
Beyond the initial announcement the F/As make, we will be adding a reminder prior to system activation that it only takes a light touch to make selections.
We’ll also be updating the games suite and will consider replacing games that require a lot of touching.
August 31st, 2007 at 1:31 pm
The content isn’t the problem. I flew Song a few times back when it existed and really enjoyed everything it had to offer. The problem is lack of availability. Let’s see it on some more aircraft!
Do you have a rollout schedule detailing how many planes have it now and what the plan is over time?
August 31st, 2007 at 2:36 pm
Hey Brett…glad you could join the conversation. I’d planned to include the roll-out schedule in my next post but here’s the lowdown:
Between Aug. 2007 and Dec. 2008 there will be a huge number of converted aircraft or new deliveries entering the fleet on a regular basis. All the a/c noted below will feature cabin-wide AVOD (except the 767-300ERs). Note that satellite TV will only be available on the domestic 757s, 767-300s and 737s due to the satellite coverage area.
So…the bottom line is that in the next 16 months cabin-wide AVOD will be available on the following a/c:
61 757-200
59 767-300ER (BusinessElite only)
28 737-800
21 767-300
14 767-400ER
12 777-200
August 31st, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Earlier this month I flew on a Delta (Song) 757 from PDX-JFK featuring the new AVOD. I had one major problem with it. Charging people to watch movies and play games, in my opinion, is extremely low. Passengers are paying enough to fly. It would be nice gesture from Delta to offer all of it’s passengers free entertainment. (I know the TV is free.) If Delta were to make this feature free, more customers would experience this great new feature that you guys have. Having to pay is also extremely inconvenient. Who wants to be woken by their kids during a red-eye flight, find their credit-card, and then set it up for their child. The price holds people back from this experience, mysef included.
August 31st, 2007 at 7:24 pm
Chris: nice post and long time, no email! Hey Brett! I’m just bitter that I never took the opportunity to fly on Song before it went away.
I have a few geek questions. How long does it take to install AVOD? Is it done during a maintenance check or is the aircraft taken offline specifically for the AVOD installation? How do you decide what is shown on AVOD? Is there any way to check and see if AVOD will be on your particular flight? Thanks!
August 31st, 2007 at 9:58 pm
It would be nice if you would roll out a system like Singapore Airlines’ inflight system. Then you would have something to talk about. Why does it seem US carriers are always playing catch up and then only going half way. It is great you are finally doing something to upgrade but why not go the distance?
Sam
August 31st, 2007 at 10:01 pm
Will ALL of the 757s, 763s, 738s, 764s, and 777s feature the product by 12/2008?
September 1st, 2007 at 1:18 am
What kind of AVOD tv programming do these aircraft have when outside of Satellite coverage? On long-haul flights, I really enjoy short 1/2 hour or hour TV shows on-demand because I don’t get any sleep if I watch an entire movie.
September 1st, 2007 at 10:39 am
I do have some input on content. You dropped fox news from your line up of TV. I personally love fox news although not everyone does I understand still it is much more widely watched than CNN or Headline News. Why was the decesion made and is it coming back?
Also glad to see you are working on the Flight Entertainment issues. I fly three weeks a month from cincinnatti to LA and love the service. In two months twice the service was completly down. Once it was rebooted. And every other time satellite content for some tv shows were not available.
Still I love the service when it is working.
Mike
September 1st, 2007 at 2:48 pm
SKYMILER:
Delta’s strategy going forward is to provide our customers with choice…as in dozens of movies, thousands of mp3s, 40 hours of HBO, live TV and games — all on demand. Think about it…more than 2,500 songs are free, live TV is free, the interactive trivia game is free. It would just not be economically possible to provide up to 25 new and classic films for free. You have to keep in mind that Delta pays big bucks for the right to air these films in flight. $5 for a new film is reasonable…heck, you’d pay $10-$15 for the same movie in a hotel room.
Regarding your other comment…by 12/08 AVOD will be installed on the entire 777 fleet, 14 of 21 764s, 28 of 71 738s, all the domestic 763s (the international 763s will have AVOD in Business only) and about half the 757s will have AVOD.
REGAVQUEEN:
It takes 3-4 weeks per aircraft to install the AVOD system and the planes are taken out of service during this modification. I work with a team of people in selecting the content for AVOD. We take into account the popularity of the films along with the critical acclaim each has earned. When you book a flight a small TV icon will appear next to the aircraft type. But I think the icon doesn’t appear until you’ve selected and paid for the flight. I’ll check with the delta.com folks.
SAMFTLA:
Delta and and Singapore both use the Panasonic’s ‘X’ series AVOD IFE system. In fact, our new 777-200LRs will feature the same system, Panasonic’s eX2. This system has a 1 terabyte storage limit — that means we’ll have a huge amount of content to offer when they start flying in Feb. 08.
AEOLOS:
As you know, satellite coverage extends only about 10 miles off the U.S. coastline. That means no satellite TV on international flights or flights to the Caribbean. However, the system is configured based on city pairs. That means that if you’re flying internationally, to AK, HI or the caribbean on a plane with satellite TV, you’ll get all the games, music and movies for free.
MNICHOLS42:
We had to drop Fox News because Echostar/Dish was unable to continue providing the network to DL due to contract negotiations between Echostar and Fox. We certainly would have kept Fox News as it was the second most popular channel we offered. If it becomes available in the future we’ll definitely look at adding it back to the lineup. Until then, you’ll have to get your “fair & balanced” news from CNN or CNBC.
September 2nd, 2007 at 11:13 am
Chris. We need one thing hugely in all planes, all routes, all day, all night: Electrical plug-ins for our laptops. Must have. Can you tell me what planes/seating sections/routes have them now and what plans there are to put them everywhere else? (Many times, even the flight crew isn’t sure about what’s provided on a given model in this regard … I was seen on a recent Air France partner flight trying to plug into a socket in the galley. Mon Dieu!) Thanks!
September 2nd, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Hi I am travelling from Dublin Ireland to Orlando via Atlanta in October this year with my family. There are 10 of us and it is the first time we have flown with Delta. Am i right in saying that there are NO seat back tv’s on the flights we are booked on? If so we will be so disappointed and we will never ever fly with Delta again. I am so annoyed that we paid a great deal of money only to find ou there is no television on board.
September 2nd, 2007 at 6:05 pm
Chris Babb - thanks for the updates.
DoD is great especially on the longer flights (JFK-LAX). Another thing that has improved is the “out of the box” selections available - particularly in the choice of Music for those who like genre’s that aren’t as mainstream as pop, country, etc. Great choice adding Dance and even lounge type music, helps make for a more relaxing flight.
Could we expect to the see the same expansion in the choices for movies? More independent films maybe?
September 2nd, 2007 at 9:02 pm
Chris,
I am a busines traveller most of the time, but occasionally fly with my kids. One thing I’ve found is that there is no appropriate kids programming on the flight. The channels that are availabe switch to more teenage-appropriate programming in the afternoon. Have you considered adding PBS / Sprout, which is appropriate for young children 24/7?
Thanks
September 2nd, 2007 at 10:06 pm
GRKITANLY:
Glad you noticed the music refresh…and especially glad you noticed Delta’s new “Deep Dance” and “Chill” categories. We increased the number of mp3s available from 1,600 to more than 2,500 and nearly doubled the number of categories available. I’m a big fan of dance, chill and spa sounds, so I have to admit that I was an advocate of adding more music in those categories.
You can absolutely expect to see more independent movies in the near future…but I’m very interested in what you’d like to see…what would you recommend?
September 2nd, 2007 at 10:14 pm
Irish Girl:
Alas, we don’t offer cabin-wide AVOD on flights between Ireland and the States…yet.
The first 757 configured for international BusinessElite with full cabin AVOD won’t start flying until late Dec. 2007. Once all 13 international 757s are upgraded you can expect to have personal entertainment systems on all flights between the U.S., Ireland, Scotland and England.
Until then, we’ll offer overhead movies. I am very sorry that we won’t be able to offer Delta on Demand on your flight and equally sorry that you won’t be flying with Delta again. I do hope you’ll give us another chance in the near future.
September 2nd, 2007 at 11:06 pm
Chris,
Thank you for your response. For future travel, how can I find out whether my plane will have the AVOD? For example based on the unique configuration of the 757-200 transcontinental, I know AVOD is on the plane. When the current 757-200 (non-transcontinental) planes get AVOD will the configuration change? How do I know if its on a 738 or 763, or etc.? Thanks
September 3rd, 2007 at 1:27 am
As someone who flew Delta to Johannesburg, I really enjoyed the service. I will be increasing trips to every 6 months starting in 2008 and would really love to see DoD available. The flight is incredibly long and it would make the time go by faster to be able to watch a few movies on the way over.
September 3rd, 2007 at 6:27 am
Chris,
on my last flight between JFK and LAX I really enjoyed Delta’s new IFE. The selection of MP3s is great and I am eager to experience the new enhancements.
However, since the 767-300ERs are flying between FRA and JFK or ATL I would love to see a full cabin AVOD installation. You pointed out that until Dec ‘08 the 767-300ERs will only have AVOD in Business Elite class. Are there any plans for 2009 and beyond? Will the international 767-300ERs be configured with the new system in coach class? It would be great.
Thanks for the overviews and insights you have provided so far. It’s great to see how quickly you have responded to the questions of the others.
September 3rd, 2007 at 8:28 am
Thanks for the update Chris, that is good news indeed and I look forward to enjoying the new AVOD.
SAM
September 4th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
Chris Babb-
A fan of Dance and Chill here as well. Loved the Buddha Bar additions - in fact they got me through my last flight (JFK-DEN-JFK). It is great that your team identified an opportunity to expand the musical selection beyond the norm. Hopefully as the system is refined, you can add even more out of the box type music to help further expand new-music penetration among consumers.
In terms of types of films, in addition to First-Run, Classics and Kids - is there an opportunity to leverage some learning your team has captured from international destinations and provide foreign films? Another possiblity is to review which films are hits in the indy-film theatres (Angelica for example here in NYC) and bring them to consumers who may not have immediate access to indy-films.
Just some initial thoughts. I have a list - but can dive into that another time!
Thanks,
-G
September 4th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
Hey Chris - Thanks for the further info on installation. So I know if I’m on a 777, I have it, and that’s good, but the rest of the fleets are incomplete. As Skymiler says, how do I know which flights have entertainment and which don’t? Will you be creating a separate sub aircraft code like you have now with 752/757?
I assume the decision to only do 40% of the 738s means you have a plan for deployment. Are you guys really going to have 40% of your aircraft running flights over 1,750 miles and the other 60% on flights under that amount? I’m very curious to hear how these are being scheduled. (Though I know that may not be your department.)
What’s the logic behind putting AVOD on the domestic 763s and not the international ones? I understand there’s no TV available on international flights, but I would think that the movies on demand would be far more valuable on the international birds than the domestic.
September 4th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Hey Chris,
the new DoD is great and have used it many times on international flights. The only disapointment and it is a little unrelated to the DoD is the lack of wireless internet access. This is becoming a standard for much of your international competition and it would be great to see Delta matching the offering. Any plans?
Thanks
Tony
September 4th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
Eric,
At 18:30, the ATL-DKR-JNB flight is the longest flight in our network and the addition of Delta on Demand would definitely make the time go faster. I believe Network is looking at switching equipment on the ATL-JNB route to a 767-400 or 777 early next year. All of our 777s have Delta on Demand at every seat and by May 2008 all of the internationally configured 767-400s will feature Delta on Demand at every seat.
September 4th, 2007 at 10:11 pm
Ralfino,
Thanks for the feedback! I’m going to try my hardest to answer everyone’s question in a timely manner…the feedback you and the other folks have provided is great.
Regarding the 767-300ERs…right now the plan is to add DoD to BusinessElite on the remaining aircraft this fall. This fleet will operate with DoD up front and overhead entertainment in the main cabin at least through 2008.
Looking at 2009 and beyond I will tell you that we are looking at a variety of options to to ensure we’re offering you one of the best entertainment experiences available in the air. Stay tuned!
September 4th, 2007 at 10:48 pm
On the question of how you can tell if Delta on Demand is available on a particular flight when you’re reserving a ticket…
Up until recently delta.com identified 757 aircraft with AVOD as a “752″ and the analog 757s as a “757.” However, I just did some checking and it seems this is no longer the case.
I believe there was also a small TV icon that appeared next to the flight number — but only after the reservation was purchased. That seems a bit counter-intuitive as AVOD could clearly be a purchase driver .
I know that ideally we’d like to identify all the AVOD-equipped flights during the online shopping process.
That said, I’ll find out the what the scoop is from the delta.com folks and get back to you all.
September 5th, 2007 at 7:03 am
Hi Chris,
I echo the others in saying that DoD is a great product differentiator and I have certainly enjoyed my Delta flights more because of it. The MP3 selections are top-of-the-line, and certainly beat many others in terms of sheer quantity (170-200 CDs on DL versus about 50 on AA for example).
Couple of suggestions/questions:
1) Agree with others that it would be great to expand the Movie selections to include more indepedent features as well as more World Cinema. Was pleasantly surprised by the increasing number of foreign movies (Korean, Japanese, Hindi) but given that Delta is so dominant in Europe, it would be great to have more European films as well.
2) Is it possible to provide the same movie selections on domestic as on international? Don’t know the raitonale behind it but I noticed that on the the movie selection is quite limited (to 10 or so) on domestic flights whereas we get over 20 on international.
3) Classic movies could also be an option…that’s one category I have noticed that is absent from DoD versus other carriers…I would imagine that the licensing fees from those would be lower than the first-run features as well?
Overall, DoD is a fantastic product…keep the improvements coming!
September 5th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
chris - Love the new blog. Whoever came up with this - couldn’t have come soon enough.
As far as the AVOD– I don’t know if you can answer this, but my fiance and I will be going on our honeymoon in August of 2008. We are going to Ireland and Rome, so our flight will either be to Dubin, Shannon, or Rome (hopefully out of ATL). Do you know if those flights will have it, or am I too far out as far as flight schedules. Even if it is only in BE, that’s fine, we hope to upgrade to BE with the SkyMiles that we both have been accumulating for a couple of years now.
Thanks!
September 5th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Scongro,
Thanks for the compliment and I agree, the corporate blog was a great idea. I’ll be sure to pass your comments on to the delta.com folks.
If you’re flying to Shannon or Dublin next summer, you’ll almost certainly be on one of our new international 757s. These aircraft will feature leather, slim-line seats in the main cabin while BE will feature our new leather Recaro cradle seat. Delta on Demand will be available at every seat in both cabins.
If you choose Rome for your honeymoon, we’ll most likely be using a 767-400 on that route, and all of our international 764s feature DoD at every seat in the plane. If it’s a 767-300, DoD is available in the BE cabin.
Congrats on your engagement! If you haven’t been to Ireland or Rome, you’re going to love it! Ireland is one of my favorite places to travel…the people are friendly and it’s a beautiful country.
September 5th, 2007 at 6:37 pm
MillardDJr,
Your feedback is very timely. As far as kids programming goes, we’re limited in what we can offer via satellite TV. This is due to the availability of various networks through our satellite provider. We were very close to offering Nickelodeon but to do so would have required us to buy a package of 4 other networks in addition to Nick. We just added ABC Family to the lineup and it should be on air in November.
We’re also adding an entire section of kids programming — “Fly Kids” — to the the international DoD product. We’ll offer 3-4 hours of TV programming from PBS, Nick, etc. and we’ll increase the number of family-oriented films.
September 5th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
tonyress,
As you may know, Boeing used to offer a product called “Connexion” which provided satellite-based, in-flight Internet access. Several international carriers offered the service but unfortunately Boeing had to scrap the product as it was unable to attract a significant number of customers.
This year several companies have announced plans to offer nationwide, in-flight WiFi access. Some are offering a satellite-based solution while one company will be providing air-to-ground service via cell towers.
Just last month a major U.S. carrier announced plans to test the service and I expect other carriers to make similar announcements in the near future. As for what to expect from Delta…stay tuned.
September 5th, 2007 at 7:45 pm
the touch screens are a major improvement
BUT what long haul competition really requires is that you all rethink the seats - especially in Business Class. While I’m an ATL home boy and glad to fly DL, I often select other airlines just so I can get some sleep. Long haul is simply uncomfortable on even your newest aircraft.
September 6th, 2007 at 3:27 am
i think i have some problems in posting msgs to older entries - is there an expiry date for each thread
September 6th, 2007 at 10:32 am
Edw3rd, I agree. I would rather pay a little extra to have more legroom and a seat the reclines a little more.
September 7th, 2007 at 12:14 am
Chris:
I am very interested in the slimline seats and the new BusinessElite seats on the 757. Can you possibly provide pictures and additional information. How will my flying experience change with these new seats?
September 7th, 2007 at 12:27 am
Now for enhancements:
Onboard Delta should have more Delta stuff. (Playing cards, postcards, toys, souvenirs, brochures, etc.). One thing that I think Delta is missing is its timetables. If you guys could distribute timetables onboard and at the airport people would become more familar with your great routes, which would
increase ridership. People are not aware of all of the exotic places you fly and all of the convenient times you have. Timetables would change that. (I know there are maps in Sky and timetables online.)For people to read and learn about your routes and times, it has to be more in your face and easier to read. Printing schedules would fullfill that.
September 7th, 2007 at 9:35 am
Hi Chris,
I just read your post about which planes will offer cabin-wide AVOD. Is there a reason why the 767-300ER will only offer in BusinessElite? Does this mean that the main cabin will have to stick with one big screen? I fly ZRH-ATL quite often and the equipment used is a 767-300ER. As the flight is 10 hours some entertainment in the main cabin would be nice.
Regards,
Andre
September 7th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
Hi everyone,
I wanted to provide some info on why we have only upgraded the BE cabins of our 767-300ER fleet. The two big reasons are weight and cost.
First, some background…Delta has the largest 767 fleet in the world and flies the most routes across the Atlantic. Our destinations range from Western Europe (Dublin and Shannon) to far Eastern Europe (Moscow, Kiev, Bucharest and Athens) to Africa.
So whether it’s 3,180 miles from JFK-SNN or 5,380 miles from ATL-SVO, any 767-300ER in the fleet can be used to fly any route to Europe or Africa. The added weight of nose-to-tail AVOD would have added significant weight to each aircraft, impacting its ability to fly the longer transatlantic routes. And as you know, more weight means more fuel which means additional cost.
And on the issue of cost, full-cabin AVOD is a significant investment, both in equipment costs and the cost associated with taking a revenue generating aircraft out of service for 2-4 weeks.
The good news is that we are upgrading the overhead equipment in the main cabin and replacing the projectors and screens with flat screen LCDs throughout. This will greatly improve reliability and image quality.
Have a great weekend!
September 7th, 2007 at 11:00 pm
Back in November of ‘06 Apple and Delta among other airlines announced iPod integration with the PTVs starting in mid 2007 and we’re in the latter half of 2007 now, so I was wondering when the iPod integration will finally be introduced?
September 8th, 2007 at 9:41 am
I’m travelling DUB-JFK in two months and am very disappointed to learn that we will be entertained by dodgy centre-of-isle screens for a trans-Atlantic flight. I know that your rivals on the route, Aer Lingus, offer in-seat entertainment and I took as much for granted when booking with Delta. I understand that there may be technical difficulties with installing In-Seat entertainment in 767-300ers, but you guys have to keep up with or beat the competition if you want to keep growing - passengers don’t pay for excuses.
I recently flew a charter flight from Dublin to Majorca, a fairly short European flight. The plane we flew in had LCD screens hanging over every 4/5 rows of seats, as well as a large screen at the end of the plane and some screens in the centre isle. I can’t believe you guys don’t even provide that on trans-Atlantic flights, considering a chartered European flight does!
Let’s just hope I can see a TV and if there’s a good movie on I’ll forgive ye =p
Oh, off-topic here, but is Row 17 on the 767-300ERs a windowless row? Our seats are there and I’d go mad if I didn’t have a window to stare out of!
Fair play with the blog, not many airliners are willing to engage with the public like that and I’m sure many Delta customers in time to come will appreciate it. Safe flying to all.
Mark.
September 8th, 2007 at 10:11 am
Also, could you recommend the best spot to sit in for IFE? Is Row 17 okay for it?
Thanks again.
September 8th, 2007 at 10:19 am
I am not sure Chris that Delta should be bragging about having the largest fleet of 76’s when the vast majority of your international competition flies the much more comfortable and modern 77’s, A330’s and A340’s that have a personal entertainment system in each coach seat. If Delta truly wants to be a competitor in the international market then you need to offer the in-flight amenities that your competition does. Even US Air offers in seat systems on their A330’s and that is a sad commentary.
Sam
September 8th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
Chris
I just saw your reply to irish girl. I am flying into ATL and on to orlando on the 20th dec and then coming home on the 3rd of Jan08. Will we have one og the new 757s do you know??
Also irish girl. I think we are very unlucky as to our location geographically wise because we have no options of flying west which will guarentee us AVOD. London gets all thoseand aer lingus only have AVOD on three of there 8 aircraft i think.!!!
September 8th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
Sorry im leaving from DUB!!!
September 8th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
It would be cool if Dallas could gets some flights that offered inseat entertainment. That would be great!
September 8th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Chris: thanks for all the great information.
Regarding content, particular for the music, you guys should talk to the folks over at Paste Magazine. They are already doing things with CNN and would be a great source of music content. And they are Atlanta local.
September 8th, 2007 at 5:42 pm
Hi Chris
I was wondering why there are no plans to install any form of IFE on the MD-88s. Yes, I understand that the MD-88s are used on shorter routes than the 737-800s and 757s. However, the MD-90s feature overhead IFE, and the routes for the MD-90 aren’t very long either. It would be nice if overhead IFE was installed on the MD-88 fleet. Panasonic offers a stripped-down overhead version of the eFX system, optimized for short-haul aircraft. Rockwell Collins also offers the PAVES system for short-haul aircraft. While Delta on Demand may not be needed, it would be nice to at least see overhead IFE on the MD-88s.
September 8th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
bullcrap
If Continental airlines can upgrade economy cabins with AVOD on it’s 757 aircraft, which have shorter range and are smaller than 767 aircraft, and then fly them all the way to Stockholm from Newark year round, then why does delta have to be so cheap. I bet if delta took a passenger survey, most wouldn’t even notice upgraded overhead projectors, and would prefer to have AVOD instead.
September 9th, 2007 at 9:20 am
I would like to see, er, hear ATC traffic just like you can on UAL (channel 9) flights. This would be great for pilot buffs, future aviators, and anyone interested in aviation. Also, it gives passengers an opportunity to hear why their plane is descending or climbing before the captain even makes a PA.
September 9th, 2007 at 3:44 pm
Chris,
I am sure AVOD throughout the cabin will not be a problem once the 787’s start rolling in a few years from now
September 10th, 2007 at 4:40 am
sushi14 (reply#48),
Delta IS putting the AVOD PTVs on al their 757 aircraft, just like CO. BTW, CO’s 757s from Stockholm to Newark sometimes do have to make fuel stops during the winter.
samftla (reply #42),
US offers AVOD on their A330s, but that’s only 9 aircraft. Their 767s and 757s that cross the pond don’t. Delta should have more than 35 aircraft (757s, 767-400s, 777s) with AVOD at every seat by next summer flying transatlantic.
September 10th, 2007 at 9:58 am
Doesn’t seem that Delta has ordered any 787’s, and since Boeing seems to have an order backlog of many years I would not expect Delta to be offering anything more than the current fleet of well worn 76’s.
Sam
September 10th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
#51 ClipperDelta: That was my statement about it being a sad commentary since US Air is already flying aircraft with AVOD at every seat. I clearly indicated that US Air only offered AVOD on their A330’s, so not sure what your point was. I did find it a bit telling that you chose not to respond to my statement about the vast majority of your European competition (with the exception of Alitalia) offering AVOD at each seat. It seems Delta rushed to roll out more international routes but doing it on the cheap. Maybe I will give you guys another try when and if you actually bring on line a product that is truly competitive. For now I will continue to fly international with airlines that offer a superior in flight experience. By the way I was Platinum with Delta in 2005 and 2006 but for the most part have lost me as a regular customer. Just got tired of paying the same for a mediocre product.
SAM
September 10th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
As far as I’m concerned, this blog is to help Delta turn into a better airline, and not to argue. Airliners.net is for arguing.
We have to remember that most people if not all people writing in this blog have a higher interest in aviation than the average traveler. I’m assuming that before trips we always research the aircraft we are flying on and its amenities. Some of us may even choose a certain flight based on the aircraft.
Now, with that said Delta should take a survey next month, or whenever, covering the fllowing:
From a scale from 1-10 what is your interest in commercial aviation?
Did you choose this flight based on price, convenience, Skymiles, or ammenities/ entertainment/ comfort?
Were you familiar with the aircraft you’re flying on prior to departure?
Were you familiar with the entertainment, ammenities, etc. of the aircraft prior to departure?
MY POINT is that I think that MOST people who fly Delta or any airline do not know in advance what aircraft they’re on and what type of entertainment it has. They go with the cheaper fare, or with what their travel agent books them on. I don’t think that passengers booked in coach are expecting their own TV in the first place. If you give your 767-300ER passengers good service they will be happy. Also guys, in the past Continental, US Air, Air France, BA, etc. have had PTVs while Delta has not. Ridership hasn’t gone down, so why would it suddenly start? When ever I meet somebody after a flight, I ask, as I’m sure we all do, “How was your flight?” I’ve heard various responses, however, I have NEVER heard, “It sucked because I didn’t have my own TV.” Now if I asked an aviation buff I might have heard that.
Conclusion: Aviation buffs, like you guys, and the average Delta travelers have different point of views.
Now Delta, hopefully you take this lack of weight to your advantage and have lower fares. Also, on the 767-300ER since you’re only slightly upgrading the entertainment, maybe you should upgrade the comfort and meals. That’s what most of your passengers really care about.
September 10th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
I flew Delta this past week on Song equipment. It was a nice plane, and included AVOD - but about half of the monitors on the plane had absolutely no sound. The flight attendants tried rebooting, without success - they seemed baffled and resigned. I’m sure it’s a nice perk - but it would be nice if it were consistently operational.
September 10th, 2007 at 6:47 pm
#53 samftla:
Sorry I didn’t make myself clear but the point about US Airways was that like US, Delta today also offers AVOD PTVs at every seat on a total of 16 airplanes (8 764ERs, 8 777s) on international flights. So if you were to travel from Atlanta to London, Paris, Manchester, Milan, Madrid, Dubai, Tel Aviv or JFK to Mumbai, you would get the AVOD systems in Economy today.
Secondly, not just Alitalia lacks AVOD PTVs; one of the biggest transatlantic players, Lufthansa, also has NO PTVs in Economy on any of their current aircraft. And yet, Lufthansa manages to pack their planes and turn a tidy profit.
BTW, I do not work for Delta; just a regular Platinum Medallion/Million Miler.
September 10th, 2007 at 9:25 pm
#54 not sure who you thought was arguing, simply pointing out differences in levels of service from different airlines. And if people can’t have an open discussion in this or any forum then what use is it? And thanks Clipper for the clarification cause it seemed in Chris’ post that the majority of the 76’s would only offer AVOD in Business.
And I for one do look at the amenities offered by each airline, since all the ticket prices seem to be about the same. In fact post # 40 irishflier is a good example of people checking out their flights.
I just booked a biz class Miami to JNB and booked it on South African rather than Delta due to the fact they offer a superior business class product, that and it is a non stop from Dulles to JNB. I would think Delta would like to know why a person who used to fly them a lot is now taking other airlines for their international flights. Maybe I just have a different set of flying friends than you cause the heavy travelers like myself all check out the equipment and we are always sharing new things being offered or cabin upgrades on international routes. We are going to fly who gives us the most bang for our buck.
By the way I still fly Delta domestic and this year I am Gold Medallion and on track to stay there for 2008 as well.
September 10th, 2007 at 11:09 pm
Samftla,
I don’t think you understood my point. Let me clarify: You, me and others using this blog, and I’m assuming your friends have a higher interest and knowledge in commercial aviation than the average traveler. We find thar getting there is half the fun. Would you agree? However, the people like us who check ammenities and may choose flights based on them, are only a small percentage of airline travelers. The larger percentage of people who fly, or the average traveler bases their trip on price, convenience, or what their business books them on. Therefore, for Delta to add AVOD to its 767-300ERs is not crucial for keeping its passengers. They might loose some people like you and other aviation buffs who find flying more than a mode of transportation, but no major losses of passengers will take place. I hope you get me and I take back what I said about the arguing. You’re right that what makes this site so great is that the public can discuss and suggest Delta’s future.
September 11th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
I think it is a great thing that Delta is enhancing the in-flight experience by adding entertainment and new technology to its planes. The on-demand systems are a wonderful addition and I’m sure there will be many more technology enhancements to come in the future.
I know this issue has been raised before, but I want to stress how wrong touch screens are for the back of the headrest. After flying from JFK to SAN, I witnessed (and was subjected to) many people not understanding how touch screens work. I saw a senior citizen hitting the screen with the back of a pencil trying to play solitare while the passenger in the seat in front of him sat there in anger. I saw children playing games in the same “rough” way while their parents were content that the children were occupied. Seated behind me was a man who decided to play trivia (aka hit the back of my seat every 10 seconds) for the entire 6 hour flight. If there is anything that makes your flight worse than babies crying, it is this.
You can try to explain to people how touch screens work, but this should not be the solution to this problem. You cannot assume that people of all ages and technological backgrounds will understand how to touch the screen “lightly.” I would be interested to know what usability tests have been done to justify using touch screens instead of any alternatives (arm rest controls, remote controls, etc.).
I do love the interactive touch screens at check-in kiosks and airport gate maps, but I do not think they belong in flight. This is one of those ideas that seems great at first, but if you haven’t tested it out among users (aka passengers) first, you are going to invest a lot of money into a failed design. When the technology begins to disrupt the experience, your customers will willingly sacrifice the entertainment for a smooth, restful flight on another airline.
If the complete removal of touch screens is not an option, I would hope that Delta removes the games or thinks about another way passengers can play games with the controls on the arm rest. A possibility could be something similar to Quantas international planes with an extendable remote control that can be removed from the arm rest and used to play games and navigate the entertainment system.
P.S. The blog is a great! Keep it up!
September 11th, 2007 at 5:52 pm
Hi everyone,
I just wanted to say that I’m very impressed with your knowledge of the industry and with your passionate responses. There’s no doubt this forum will provide a terrific platform for positive and constructive feedback.
Real quick…I wanted to provide an update on Delta’s next big IFE product enhancement. In just about two weeks our first 737-800 will roll out of the hangar with nose-to-tail Delta on Demand. This aircraft will be the first 737NG in any U.S. fleet to offer full cabin AVOD and satellite TV. Even better news is that this is just the first of 28 planes to be converted.
Chris-
September 12th, 2007 at 12:24 am
Thanks Chris for you information here! I was wondering when we’d see the first domestic 767-300 out of the hangar with the new Delta on Demand system?
September 12th, 2007 at 10:33 am
So I’m seriously getting more and more impressed with Delta. A corporate blog that you can actually have a meaningful discussion! I would like to see a bit more family oriented movies on DoD. It seems like the percentage of alternate lifestyle and heavily rated movies to per portion of what would be on the flight is slightly out of per portion. Well maybe I’m wrong, but a larger selection of this kind of content would be nice. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be the latest content out there. Anyway very impressed with this blog!
September 12th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
Chris,
What route(s) will this 738 be flying?
September 12th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
Thanks # 59 Skymiler, and just to clarify my position I would like nothing better than to see Delta transformed into a top tier carrier. I do agree that my group may be a bit more savvy in travel, but in my own casual encounters with other travelers and in reading other blogs such as Skytrax, I do believe that a lot of folks make their choices based on the perceived differences in levels of international service. Just how much revenue an airline might loose, I would not venture to guess. I do look forward to the day when Delta upgrades the entire Business cabin experience so I can return as a regular. I would much rather spend my money with them than a foreign flag carrier.
So I guess we can agree to disagree :)).
Sam
September 12th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
Chris Babb-
Is the plan for the 738s similar to the Transcon 757s? ie. being dedicated to certain routes within the system and rotating on non-”Transcon” routes when needed (similar to how some 757TCs op EWR-ATL)?
Also a question on configuration changes to the 738 fleet - is the long-term vision to apply the mod fleet-wide on the 738 or just the 28 a/c? Will the non-PTV 738s feature the new interior configuration - 16/144Y via slimline and are you removing the bulkheads between F and Y similar to NWA or COs 733/735 fleet?
Thanks in advance.
September 12th, 2007 at 9:05 pm
Here’s my gallon of gas , I flew from Atlanta to Seattle on a song 757 and the back-seat tv’s made the flight a world of a difference. On my return flight to Atl it was ok but that feeling of independence wasn’t there. What I’m trying to tell you Delta, is that when people think of Jetblue they of the TELE. When they think of Song they think of the TELE. When they think of flying a regular Delta plane, they say just another long flight.
Please think about putting TV’s on the back of all your cross country flights!I think it will bring you more revenue and more loyal passengers.
September 12th, 2007 at 10:04 pm
asidero,
Delta flights also have and are still getting the new entertainment. Song is now Delta, just the paint is different. Soon, that Song plane you flew on will have Delta colors and still have AVOD. Also Delta’s 767’s, 737’s and more 757’s are getting TELE, hopefully making all transcontinental flights with AVOD.
September 13th, 2007 at 4:40 pm
As a refugee from another unnamed legacy carrier, I do miss one thing - in flight ATC. I really enjoy watching the map while listening to ATC on the headset. On the other airline, you sometimes had to convince the pilot to turn it on, but most did.
As a former gate/baggage agent, I would like to ask that Delta review its disembarking procedures for aircraft with plane-side luggage check. At present, passengers are held inside the plane until the luggage is brought forward. I’m certain this is for safety reasons, but it inconveniences passengers that didn’t check their luggage plane-side. At my former airline, that flew CRJ 50’s, we had a gate agent meet the plane and “supervise” those passengers picking up luggage as they waited on the ramp. The other passengers went on their way. Sometimes, the flight attendant, pilots, or baggage agent would supervise. or
September 14th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Hi Chris,
As someone who appreciates peace and quiet, I would love to see the sound systems upgraded so that I don’t have to listen to what everyone else is listening to.
I know you can’t do anything about folks with their headphones up at the maximum volume, but it makes me crazy that even when no one around me is even listening to the entertainment system, still I hear the movie.
Noise reducing headphones are great at blocking out engine noise, but they can’t do anything about unwanted entertainment audio. Can you?
Thanks for a great blog!
September 21st, 2007 at 11:35 am
I am new to blogs and I am sure I am in the wrong one for my question, but here goes ….
On Delta website it shows Flight 176, ATL-DUB leaving Oct 1st, to be a 767-300er but when I view seats it shows a 767-200 confiuration. Namely the BE seatd are 5 rows instead of 6 rows?
Which is correct?
Thanks.
September 21st, 2007 at 8:05 pm
amcanadian:
That is interesting at to why the seat configuration is titled 767-200, but rest assured, the type aircraft you will be on will be a 767-300ER. Delta no longer has the 767-200 models. This is probably something delta.com folks have to fix.
September 21st, 2007 at 9:11 pm
Hey everyone…I’ve just returned from the annual World Airline Entertainment Association (WAEA). This conference included more than 60 airlines and hundreds of IFE-related technology vendors. There was some very cool stuff displayed that hopefully will be making it onboard in the near future.
So…enough of the small talk, let’s get to your questions!
# 40 kellydj1 Says:
September 7th, 2007 at 11:00 pm
Back in November of ‘06 Apple and Delta among other airlines announced iPod integration with the PTVs starting in mid 2007 and we’re in the latter half of 2007 now, so I was wondering when the iPod integration will finally be introduced?
kellydj1…The iPod integration is moving more slowly than planned. The eFX system can’t easily communicate with the iPod software without significant modification. We’re still working on it and will provide an update when anything changes.
# 44 f1eddie Says:
September 8th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
I just saw your reply to irish girl. I am flying into ATL and on to orlando on the 20th dec and then coming home on the 3rd of Jan08. Will we have one og the new 757s do you know??
f1eddie…the first 757-200 ETOPS aircraft will go into mod in December but it won’t enter the fleet with the new interior until January.
# 47 whinton Says:
September 8th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Chris: thanks for all the great information. Regarding content, particular for the music, you guys should talk to the folks over at Paste Magazine. They are already doing things with CNN and would be a great source of music content. And they are Atlanta local.
whinton…thanks for the info…I’ll look into it!
# 48 Delta 764 Says:
September 8th, 2007 at 5:42 pm
I was wondering why there are no plans to install any form of IFE on the MD-88s.
Delta 764…no plans for inseat entertainment on the MD88s but we are evaluating other IFE options.
# 50 rickp Says:
September 9th, 2007 at 9:20 am
I would like to see, er, hear ATC traffic just like you can on UAL (channel 9) flights.
rickp…I’d like to hear this too! When I’ve flow with UAL, I’ve always enjoyed listening to the conversation between ATC and the crew. I’d also like to see a channel with a link to an external camera. I know several Asian and Mideast airlines offer this feature and it’s VERY cool.
# 62 jrlander Says:
September 12th, 2007 at 12:24 am
Thanks Chris for you information here! I was wondering when we’d see the first domestic 767-300 out of the hangar with the new Delta on Demand system?
jrlander…the first upgraded 767-300 domestic will roll out in late November or early December.
# 64 Skymiler Says:
September 12th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
What route(s) will this 738 be flying?
Skymiler…the first digital 738 will be flying transcons…JFK to West Coast destinations.
# 66 grkitalny Says:
September 12th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
Is the plan for the 738s similar to the Transcon 757s? ie. being dedicated to certain routes within the system and rotating on non-”Transcon” routes when needed (similar to how some 757TCs op EWR-ATL)?
Yes…the 738s will be used on transcons, primarily from our JFK and ATL hubs.
Also a question on configuration changes to the 738 fleet - is the long-term vision to apply the mod fleet-wide on the 738 or just the 28 a/c? Will the non-PTV 738s feature the new interior configuration - 16/144Y via slimline and are you removing the bulkheads between F and Y similar to NWA or COs 733/735 fleet?
We are moving to a 16/144 configuration across the 738 fleet…not sure about the bulkheads.
# 70 banichiji Says:
September 14th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Hi Chris,
As someone who appreciates peace and quiet, I would love to see the sound systems upgraded so that I don’t have to listen to what everyone else is listening to.
I know you can’t do anything about folks with their headphones up at the maximum volume, but it makes me crazy that even when no one around me is even listening to the entertainment system, still I hear the movie.
Noise reducing headphones are great at blocking out engine noise, but they can’t do anything about unwanted entertainment audio. Can you?
banichiji…your question cracked me up. Yes…I can do something! We’re working with Delta’s Engineering and Cabin MTC teams to plug the old pneumatic headphone jacks. It won’t happen overnight, but expect some relief in the coming months.
September 22nd, 2007 at 1:14 am
So Chris… I’ll be on my Honeymoon in mid-December and will be taking the ATL-OGG (Maui) flight round trip (with 1-stop in LAX). Does that round-trip flight have the seat-back entertainment? There’s no indication on Delta.com on whether or not there will be.
Equipment-wise, on one Delta.com page, it tells me that it’s a 767-300, on another a 767-300ER, and yet on another a 767-400ER. I don’t think Delta even knows what equipment will be doing that flight! I know it’s 2 1/2 months away, but the anticipation is killing me!
If you know the answer, please divulge so I’ll know what to look forward to. As much as I am happy to go to Maui for my honeymoon, just thinking of the 10+ hours I will be on the plane just makes me tired. Knowing that there will be seat-back entertainment will help time pass much faster!
Thanks for your help, and thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to answer questions from simple-folks like me!
JG
September 23rd, 2007 at 8:00 pm
Having just flown JFK-SFO, I will say the IFE system didn’t really impress me that much.
I was in first class on a former Song 757. The F seat pitch was so tight that when the seat in front was reclined even slightly it hit my knees. Not at all pleasant, and tangibly inferior to what I would have enjoyed on United or American (in business class) or Virgin America (in first).
The IFE screen was much smaller than what Virgin America offers in their first class cabin — a function of the tight seat pitch. But the channels that were offered weren’t all that “special” (HBO excepted). Two of the TV channels weren’t working correctly. And the movie offerings were pretty standard airline fare.
I’d encourage DL to offer more independent/”art house” movies, along with “classics.” Maybe you could carry content from your ATL neighbor, Turner Classic Movies?
September 24th, 2007 at 8:51 pm
royal-jet-service,
I like your handle…a nod to Delta’s DC-8 service of the 1960s?
I’d like to address some of your comments…I think you’ll find our F class pitch to be comparable to any U.S. carrier (38″-40″). Granted, UA and AA offer a few flights with a three class product from JFK using 752s and 762s, respectively. But keep in mind that they are limited to just SFO and LAX. By next spring all of our transcons from JFK and ATL will feature our enhanced product…those routes will include SEA, PDX, SFO, OAK, SJC, LAX, SNA, ONT, SAN and LAS.
Our IFE screens are 7″ vs. Virgin’s 9″.
To your point about the TV channels that weren’t working. I want to assure you that we are working around the clock to improve system reliability.
Over the next few months we will be doubling the number of movies available on Delta on Demand and I think you’ll like some of the selections we’re going to offer. Next time you fly with us, be sure to let me know your thoughts — either via this forum, or entertainment@delta.com.
Finally…just wanted you to know that we actually offered TCM up until August. We replaced it with FX because our passenger usage data showed TCM was one of the least watched channels.
Thanks again for the feedback!
Chris
September 24th, 2007 at 9:00 pm
Hawaii-5-0,
By mid-December about half of the ATL-LAX flights will feature Delta on Demand. I’m working with Delta.com to add an identifier to the online schedules so it will be easier to identify flights with the new IFE.
We have a ton of planes going through the IFE upgrade so there’s better than a 50/50 chance that your ATL-LAX leg will feature DoD. The flight to OGG will be on a 767-300 and I’m almost positive that will not be a plane with DoD.
Thanks for being patient…we are working hard on the upgrades!
Congrats on your engagement…you’re going to love Maui…it’s an absolutely beautiful island.
September 24th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
Dear Chris- by the way, Great name
I just spent about 20 minutes reading most of the posts, so I hope I’m not repeating too much here. But I am still baffled as to why the 767-300ER fleet isnt being updated. I have flown several times from HNL to STR either directly via ATL or LAX/SFO and ATL. NONE of my flights have ever had AVOD, and recently i’ve noticed that the planes I have been on are still in paint schemes two cycles old (the blue stripe along cabin with big blue tail and smal red accent). Most of the 767-300’s also still have projector screens and use SVHS players for IFE. I know that Delta is the largest operator of the Boeing 767 type, which baffles me how you can be proud of that but not upgrade them. And the argument of weight is somewhat true but I am sure that it cannot be such a huge factor if 767-300ER’s from other airlines currently have better IFE than Delta.
If Delta wants to become a major International player it needs to make its planes at least not be overly handicapped compared to the competition. I’m not even talking about DoD- just upgraded digital based IFE using LCD screens (that I know are LIGHTER than those huge projectors) on these flights that last 9+ hours. Even on Delta’s HNL/OGG/KOA flights it would be nice to have DoD (minus satellite TV).
I just hope that Delta realizes that it’s behind the game in this, and that product consistency is not a stregth currently (anything from nice, shinny cabins to crappy 767-300ER cabins)… I hope that one day I will be able to fly from ATL to STR and watch a movie whenever I like, not just when it decides to play.
Thanks for listening to the rant
Aloha, have a wonderful day
Chris
aka Paparazzi1983
September 25th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
The 767 remain the backbone of Delta’s international route network, yet even more than a decade after competitors introduced seat back IFE, Delta is still not keeping up. Surely, on a 10+ hour international flight, IFE is more worthwhile than on those relatively short domestic hops. I guess until Delta retires the 767s - which seems at least another decade off - I will prefer to travel Delta’s Skyteam partners mostly due to their superior IFE. Delta’s international inflight experience certainly does not keep up with its competitors.
Thankfully, on my transatlantic flighs I am usually able to book a Delta codeshare on Air France for the same price and with a comparable schedule as the non-codeshare flight. This makes me wonder: How much revenue does Delta get to keep from those codeshare flights?
Delta can adopt at least three things from its Skyteam partner: (1) A good selection of current movies on modern IFE; (2) a cart placed near the lavatories from which passengers can serve themselves to non-alcoholic drinks and snacks - and still the cabin attendants walk through the cabin more frequently than on DL flights; (3) Better breakfast/snack - while the main meal in economy is usually comparable whatever Skyteam airline I fly, I am disappointed by the breakfast/snack served on DL flights.
September 25th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
I agree with crazydiver on those three points, and thats the reason I would fly Air France. however, i’ve only had bad experiences at CDG so I try to avoid it. Maybe I’ll try it again, because the last time I flew a Delta 767-300ER I felt like I was flying a plane in the mid-90’s.
September 26th, 2007 at 9:09 am
Gotta Tell Ya. I’m not crazy about the touch screens. The problem is, most peope think they are “Punch” screens. I flew 8.5 hours from London to Atlanta with someone punching the back of my seat playing a game. Not at all a pleasant experience. Maybe install the armrest types that pop up instead of in the seat backs.
Between that, and the flight attendants who can’t seem to serve drinks without turning ALL the cabin lights on, it was a miserable flight.
September 26th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
Forgive me if you have already answered this question. Were you ever able to indicate how we can tell if a flight has On Demand or Satellite TV on board? PS flying to Tokyo in November.
September 26th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
Chris,
Thanks for your post and for responding to so many questions. I’d like to inquire about an experience I had with empower ports recently on a 767-300ER from CVG-FCO and back. While not quite related to the DoD discussion, practically speaking Empower contributes to the entertainment experience of those flyers with gadgets and an adapter, so I hope it’s okay asking this question.
During these flights (mid august/early september) the empower ports were disabled. I asked the flight attendants on the CVG-FCO (outbound) leg about this and was told it was policy to disable power for transatlantic and hawaii flights. This seemed a little silly, as these long hauls are specifically when power is needed: I had two batteries with me, which gave me 6-7 hours of work/movie watching time, but then I was out of luck. I’ve had power on non-delta international flights before (CI on a 747-400 for LAX-TPE, and regular outlets to boot!) so I’m confused why Delta would do this.
thanks!
September 29th, 2007 at 10:04 pm
amcanadian:
That is interesting at to why the seat configuration is titled 767-200, but rest assured, the type aircraft you will be on will be a 767-300ER. Delta no longer has the 767-200 models. This is probably something delta.com folks have to fix.
amcanadian:
delta.com shows the B-762 in reference to ex-Gulf Air planes. Just one glance at the airplane’s 6 Emergency Exit doors and the overwing plugs. Anybody correct me if Im wrong.
September 30th, 2007 at 5:25 pm
Chris,
Could you please provide information on the “enhanced product” and slimline. Any pictures?
Thanks